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Are Those Who Died Aware Of What's Going On In The Earth?
George
L. Faull
Hebrews
12:1
I
heard you use several scriptures to affirm that the dead know what is going on
down here on earth. Here are objections
to the scriptures to which you refer:
OBJECTION #1: Hebrews 12:1 does not infer that the dead is aware of our
race because of the word that is used for witness.
Hebrews 12:1, “Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so
great a cloud of witnesses, let us
lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the
race that is set before us,”
The
word “witness” (3144) used in Hebrews
12:1 is used a total of 34 times.
In the KJV it is translated 29 times as “witness”, 3 times as “martyr”
and 2 times as “record”.
The word is used three ways:
A. First,
In a legal sense.
Ø Matthew 18:16, “But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.”
Ø
Matthew 26:65, “Then
the high priest rent his clothes, saying, He hath spoken blasphemy; what
further need have we of witnesses?
behold, now ye have heard his blasphemy.”
Ø
Acts 6:13, “And
set up false witnesses, which said,
This man ceaseth not to speak blasphemous words against this holy place, and
the law:”
B. Second,
In a historical sense.
One who is a spectator of
anything e.g. of a contest
Ø
Acts 7:58,
“And cast him out of the city, and
stoned him: and the witnesses laid down their clothes at a
young man's feet, whose name was Saul.”
Ø
I Timothy 6:12, “Fight
the good fight of faith, lay hold on eternal life, whereunto thou art also called, and hast professed a good
profession before many witnesses.”
Ø
II Timothy 2:2,
“And the things that thou hast heard of me among many witnesses, the same commit thou to faithful men, who shall be able
to teach others also.”
C. Third,
In an ethical sense.
Those who have proven
the strength and genius of
their faith in Christ
by undergoing a violent death
i.e. “martyrs”.
Ø
Acts 22:20, “And
when the blood of thy martyr Stephen
was shed, I also was standing by, and consenting unto his death, and kept the
raiment of them that slew him.”
Ø
Revelation 2:13,
“I know thy works, and where thou dwellest, even where Satan's seat is:
and thou holdest fast my name, and hast not denied my faith, even in those days
wherein Antipas was my faithful martyr, who was slain among you, where
Satan dwelleth.”
Ø Revelation 17:6, “And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus: and when I saw her, I wondered with great admiration.”
Now where should we put Hebrews 12:1?
1. Are
they witnesses in a legal sense? No.
2. Are
they martyrs? No.
Some of those in the 11th chapter were but many died of old age and did not give their blood or even die violent deaths.
3. Are they spectators? This seems more likely.
The context is such that those mentioned in Hebrews 11 surround us now that we are on the playing field. They are watching our race so we should run with patience the race before us.
The imagery of the passage is that of the amphitheater where the great crowd looks on and sees the gladiators contesting down on the floor of the arena. In order to get the full meaning we must see the great crowd of onlookers made up of those who themselves had at some time in the past been in contest in the arena running their own race.
Understanding it this way still sets them forth for examples just as much as the position which denies that they are our observers.
Robert Milligan quoted Alford: “The words must be taken as distinctively implying community between the church triumphant and the church below; that they who have entered into the heavenly rest are conscious of what passes among ourselves. Any interpretation short of this leaves the exhortation tame and without point. If they are merely quasi-witnesses, merely witnesses in a metaphor, the motive, so far as this clause supplies one, is gone.” The fact, as here alleged by Alford, that the spirits of the just made perfect are real witnesses of our conduct, is most likely correct.”
OBJECTION #2: Bullingers observation that if the author of Hebrews wanted to present the heroes as spectators, he would have had to use one of two Greek words.
This observation is without merit.
A.
First, autoptes
(845) – eyewitness, used in Luke 1:2,
“Even as they delivered them unto us, which from the beginning were eyewitnesses, and ministers of the word;”
This is a medical term where we get our word “autopsy”. It means a detailed examination. This word would is much too strong of a word for a mere observer.
B. Second,
epoptes (2030) of II Peter 1:16, “For we have not followed cunningly devised
fables, when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus
Christ, but were eyewitnesses of his majesty.”
But this word also indicates an “overseer” or “inspector” and was used of someone who really examined something carefully.
Both of these words seem much too strong for merely being observers of our race.
OBJECTION #3: If one objects that the dead do not become omniscient, I
say it is a big jump from being “spectators” to being “omniscient”.
No one is contending that. If I watch a contest it does not infer I know all that is going or that I have all knowledge of even one participant. I am not an overseer, inspector, or doing an autopsy when I am a mere spectator of a race.
OBJECTION #4: In Luke 16:27-28, the rich man in Hades knew by prior
knowledge that his brethren were not saved.
It was not because he observed them.
I believe this assumption is just as good as our assumption that he observed them. We do not know how long after death that this conversation took place so we both are assuming our perspective is correct.
OBJECTION #5: Those in Revelation 6 were crying for vengeance on those
who killed them and would know that it was not accomplished because the final
judgment had not occurred. It was not
because they could observe them.
That is another equally good assumption. One perspective is as admittedly as good as the other. Neither is provable.
OBJECTION #6: One who has died is so focused when he is with Christ he
is not concerned about life on earth.
Good enough opinion. I don’t know if it’s true or not.
A. Revelation
6 shows they were not so focused that they didn’t care about God doing
something to their murderers.
B. The
rich man considered his brothers a weighty matter of concern.
C. Moses
and Elijah were sure interested in Christ’s impending death at His
transformation.
Luke 9:28-30, “28 And it came to pass after these words, about eight days, that taking Peter and John and James he went up into a mountain to pray. 29 And as he prayed the fashion of his countenance became different and his raiment white and effulgent. 30 And lo, two men talked with him, who were Moses and Elias, 31 who, appearing in glory, spoke of his departure which he was about to accomplish in Jerusalem.”
D. Isaiah
14:9-20 shows those in Hades were fully aware of the majesty of the King of
Babylon and even rose up to mock him as he entered Hades.
OBJECTION #7: Your use of Matthew 12:41, 42 to prove that they are aware is an assumption as they were just going to testify against the Jews of Jesus’ day. It does not say they saw what the Jews of Jesus’ day did. The Ninevites and Queen of Sheba are not witnesses, their lives witness that they responded with less evidence than the first century Jews.
Well I wouldn’t be as dogmatic in my conclusions as you are.
A. It
sure appears that they had knowledge of first century Jews since we are told
they will rise up and condemn them.
B. You
seem to think the Ninevites and Queen of Sheba were Gods exhibit A and B in
this trial against first century Jews.
It appears to me that they are the ones who are risen up to condemn not merely the exhibits that the prosecutor used to condemn first century Jews.
OBJECTION #8: I think your argument that angels are knowledgeable of
what goes on and desired to look into our salvation on earth (I Peter 1:13) and
therefore the dead are probably deeply interested is a weak argument.
I
think you have every right to your opinion.
To me it makes perfect sense that they would be just as interested as
the angels.
OBJECTION #9: Samuel did not
really come back to discuss what was happening on earth. I Samuel 28:15
I
beg to differ on this one. This is an
inspired account of the event.
A. The inspired writer says
“and Samuel said to Saul, “why hast thou disquieted me to bring me up?””
Furthermore, Samuel says, “The LORD hath done to him
as he spake by me for the LORD hath rent the kingdom out of thine hand and
given it to your neighbor given to David.”
B. Samuel knew what was
going on in Saul’s life and was peeved for being brought back into his
life.
OBJECTION #10: Your argument
that demons are the spirit of the departed dead and that they are still
involved in history and therefore knowledgeable of this life is far out.
Well like it or not, the whole ancient world, both Jew and Gentile, believed a demon is the spirit of the wicked dead. Jesus never corrected their thinking.
A. In
fact there is not one dissenting voice in ancient history but that such is the
case. (The interested reader can study
this in our course on DEMONOLOGY.)
B. If
this is correct and demons are the departed dead, it proves without question
that the dead are aware of our life and even try to stay involved in it.
C. The
prohibition to talk to the dead is proof that they are aware of this world.
D. Also,
the fortuneteller girl in Acts 16:16 who had a spirit of divination and brought
to her master much gain by soothsaying until Paul cast out the demon shows that
they are very knowledgeable of this life.
E.
In fact, when the
demon was cast out the hope of further gain for the owner was gone for the
demons’ knowledge was gone.
F.
If what the ancient
Jews and Gentiles’ believed was correct in believing that demons are the wicked
dead, we have proven our case that they are aware of this life.
OBJECTION #11: Lazarus was comforted and there
are no tears in Heaven as there would be if the dead could see their loved ones
sin, hypocrisy and rejection of God.
We
are told that after death and Hades are cast into the Lake of fire, that there
would be no more tears. This has not
occurred as of yet. It’s when there is
no more death that there’s no more tears.
Revelation 21:4
You would make paradise as great as Heaven.
CONCLUSION: Let me hasten to add these things are not to be tests of fellowship. We just think the subject is interesting, informative and one no one should be dogmatic because it does not change our relationship with God if it is misunderstood. The communion of saints to me includes more than the living saints but also those who have already gone to be with Jesus.
Note the fatalistic verses you
quote all have to do with the body in the grave not the soul that returns to
God: Ecclesiastes 9:5-6; 12:9, Psalms 6:5; 30:9, 31:17; 88:11, Isaiah
38:18-19.